Curse

Kaleban · Mar 13, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Okay, I know we've all had some mean old arguments in the past, at GREAT length lol, over the pros and cons of this infamous skill.

One of the big problems with it was that it made you invulnerable to MOST of the attacks in the game, and those that could hit/strip you were few and far between.

I actually like ANet's handling of the "nerf" to it, in spirit anyways, but feel they erred a bit on the execution.

Here's the thing, I'm an old school gamer, with my favorite genre being RPGs (Bioware and Bethesda much love). In almost ANY incarnation of an RPG out there, a Shadow type monster is immune to physical attacks, but can take damage from spells.

This kind of makes sense, as they're not physical creatures, in the Prime Material world anyway.

Some RPGs allow players to go ethereal, or turn into shadows, which negates physical attacks entirely, but can still be affected by spells or attacks that are magical in nature.

The tl;dr version is, I think Shadow Form should be inverted of its current state. It should be physical attacks that are negated entirely, as logically a physical attack could not hit a shadow being (try punching your shadow lol), and then you gain 5 damage reduction against spells for each enchantment on you, which kind of makes logical sense, seeing as how the "extra" enchantments act as shadow armor against magic. Also, I would lower the max damage cap to around 17 (make it in line with dagger damage), and change it to life-stealing, seeing as how shadows can't do physical damage, but they usually suck the life out of anyone via negative energy.

I doubt that after the wait for the skill balance, and the fracas that ensued over the skill itself, that ANet will make any further changes to this skill for quite some time. However, if they DO, I would hope they'd look at it from this perspective, that the skill should be internally consistent with its own logical basis, even if that's grounded in fantasy.

Just something to think about I guess.

Axeman002 · Mar 13, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

games lost its edge since they bummed the only part of the game left that i enjoyed...already gave the £££ for new PC that i was gonna buy for GW2 to my misses to spend on what she wanted (vodka ftl)...so its safe to say now its spent i wont be getting GW2 either lol

as for OP... they wont even bat an eyelid at this, i wouldn't waste anymore time talking about SF.

Regards retiring PC gamer

Reformed · Mar 13, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

So basically improved Mist Form. Changing to physical immunity only would ensure the skill never sees use again outside of niche play. Spell immunity on the other hand has always been at a premium which is most likely why they did what they did. If anything my prediction is that you will see a nerf to Shroud of Distress before they whack SF again.

Tenebrae · Mar 13, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The tl;dr version is, I think Shadow Form should be inverted of its current state. It should be physical attacks that are negated entirely, as logically a physical attack could not hit a shadow being (try punching your shadow lol), and then you gain 5 damage reduction against spells for each enchantment on you, which kind of makes logical sense, seeing as how the "extra" enchantments act as shadow armor against magic.

Nope. Everything here in GW has a "body". Spirits have 1 and you can hit them. Spells on the contrary DONT have a "body" or are material so its pretty logical that they fail against someone that is on a Shadow Form ( its there , you can see it , touch it ), thats why a spear , arrow or a melee weapon can do damage to it. You can not hex a spirit but can inflict conditions on them ..... take the "shadow" definition in GW as a "super" spirit .

I would support projectile spells to work on Shadow Form users but those skills are "spells" so it would take a game mechanic rework. Also theres plenty of physical stuff on sin skills like CA , CD and Flashing Blades , it would be redundant.

Deatgs Corrupter · Mar 13, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I have a few things to say.

'live and let live'

the nerf was fine, you still get kded and take damage, uwsc is nigh impoosible with pugs the nerf has happened these discussions are pointless seeing as melle mobs would be easy to farm..

Kumu Honua · Mar 13, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.

The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds.

Divine Ashes · Mar 13, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.

The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds.

This would basically be smiter's booning it. The goal they were trying to reach was to nerf Shadow Form, but nerf it just enough that it wouldn't be as viable and as overpowered as it is now. I think they succeeded in that goal.

As for the OP, your thoughts make sense, but there would be no reason to change SF just to fit a logical ideal.

RoscoeWallace · Mar 13, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.

The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds.

I'm still unaware of how SF was a problem from another gamers perspective.

Bristlebane · Mar 13, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I kinda gave up on GW1, but not because of some /ragequit, QQ, or that they nerfed my fav skill lol. Game is just getting old. I will however get GW2 as soon as it's available as i believe they will make a better game than GW1 originally was by learning from what GW1 evolved into.

PS. No they did not nerf my fav skill, I will always dig Resurrection Signet lol

Yawgmoth · Mar 13, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.

The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds.

Fully agree. Just change the skilltype to Form so it can't be Arcane Echo'd. It was obvious mere DAYS after the skill went officially imba but somehow it wasn't obv for Anet...

It was a perfectly fine skill when nonperma and had a ton of uses without being perma. Last fix was a good move but it could have been done better. OP's reverseway is also interesting, but it would turn the skill into a pure farming skill for stuff like Raptors.

upier · Mar 13, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

gremlin · Mar 13, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I take the Ops point about when your a shadow creature or otherwise none corporeal you shouldn't take damage from physical attacks.
This is true enough except many games have the proviso takes no damage from none magical weapons.

Gw has loads of weapons that deal fire cold lightning earth dark holy damage etc.
Many of the skills used with said weapons also add magical damage the number of purely physical attacks are very few.
The ritualist spirits are none corporeal or at least appear so yet they take damage as normal.

I like anet's logic that you can have great ability in one area at the expense of a vulnerability in another.

Assassins were intended to be hit and run characters not tanks their attacks and defences should be devastating but short lived.
By all means move into an attack position while all but invulnerable strike then get out as fast as possible, they where and still are superb at that.

MisterB · Mar 13, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

ANet has demonstrated pretty clearly that their original concept for the skill has changed. It would have been very easy to stop the permanent upkeep of the skill if that was their desired goal; instead, ANet chose to make permanent upkeep easier.

Trinity Fire Angel · Mar 13, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

nah... i think its all good now. live and let die i say.

hey, we got it pretty good here in gws. i have been reading the Aion forums (thinking of going to play some Aion) and it seems the balance issues in gws are a walk in the park compared to what is happening at Aion.

don;t worry... be happy. we don;t have to pay $15 a month for an unbalanced pvp system and actually have a pve end game with lots of content.

Tramp · Mar 13, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Obviously Anet thought that speedclearing was taking too long, and now with the new "nerf" to SF, there are teams saying their DOA times are going to be hitting 43-45 minutes. Plus they opened up plains to ecto farming again using SF and degen. They only wanted to hurt the 600 monk teams with the nerfs. Apparently 600 teamplay was the enemy. Those worthless dungeons in EOTN were being run by people instead of pugging for hours to earn a worthless gold + an onyx or diamond. Anet has demonstrated they fully endorse SF or else they would not have continued its reign as the key to all speedclearing groups. Any talk of changes is pointless. Not even Chuck Norris could nerf SF. If you want a fat storage, you better go sin. (and I do not mean girls pigging out on chocolate icecream)

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 13, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

ArenNet waited waaaaaay too long to fix it now. They've already ruined the game and community with it.

I also daresay that hurting 600/smite was a terrible idea.

BlueXIV · Mar 13, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

People have always gotten below 43-45 for DoA o_O

Skyy High · Mar 13, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

OP: the skill you're looking for is Mistform. SF's fine now; maintainable for everyone, and not invulnerable to everything so it's not the absolute easiest farming build ever anymore.

Pandora's box · Mar 13, 2010, 10:04 PM // 22:04

There is an easy way to balance the game (PvE) without changing any skill: Allow Elite skills only in the original campaign where they were introduced. Make an exception for Eye of the North because that is an expansion for all 3 campaigns, and monsters there are harder. But don't allow the special PvE only skills in the 3 original campaigns. This will make the game more challenging and harder to beat. And balancing will become a peace of cake...

MisterB · Mar 13, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

There is an easy way to balance the game (PvE) without changing any skill: Allow Elite skills only in the original campaign where they were introduced. Make an exception for Eye of the North because that is an expansion for all 3 campaigns, and monsters there are harder. But don't allow the special PvE only skills in the 3 original campaigns. This will make the game more challenging and harder to beat. And balancing will become a peace of cake...

That would be the opposite of fun. Hurray for loading new skill bars every single time you click the boat.

edit: I should also point out that such a system would do little to "fix" Shadow Form, since UW and Fow are Core, and dungeon runs would still be allowed(EotN).